James Lalor- from Co Kilkenny

I know a lot about my maternal great-grandfather James Lalor on the West Coast in New Zealand. He was active on various local boards and committees, and there are many references to him on Papers Past. I am connected with various lines of his Lalor descendants in New Zealand via DNA.

But I know very little about his life in Ireland before he emigrated. I know he came from Co Kilkenny, and from his death registration I know that his father was John Lalor and his mother's name was Mary. I don't have a more precise location for him in Ireland, and nor do I know his mother's maiden name. Nor does Ancestry provide any suggestions for further ancestors via ThruLines.

One thing I have learned about him from an article in Entre Nous- a parliamentary journal (16 Nov 1901)- is that he was a "blood relation to two men of celebrity".  He was a “full cousin” of the celebrated Irish orator Richard Lalor Shiel; and Peter Lalor, later speaker of Victorian Legislative Assembly, was a ‘distant relation’. (Our James was said to be in Bendigo when the Eureka riots took place at Ballarat.)

James Lalor was clearly a man who had been educated when growing up in Co Kilkenny. He started his career in the Post Office, he managed a large butchery shop in Melbourne, and he was a Parliamentary Messenger in New Zealand. He was born sometime between 1837 and 1844, and seems to have headed off to Australia for the goldrushes when he was still quite young.

 Using Google, I found a free ebook of “The Speeches of the Right Honourable Richard Lalor Shiel.” This had information about Richard Lalor Shiel’s connection with the Lalor family. He married ‘the daughter of Mr John Lalor of Crenagh, in the county of Tipperary, the widow of Mr Edward Power, of Gurteen’, and thus became connected by property with the county of Tipperary.

There is further information about Richard Lalor Shiel in a wikisource database that states that Richard Lalor Shiel was born 17 Aug 1791, several decades before our James Lalor. His first wife died in 1822, and in "1830 he married Mrs Anastasia Power, the daughter and coheiress of John Lalor, esq., of Crenagh. Co Tipperary."



There is information on the NUI Galway website about landed estates that includes information about the Lalor and Power-Lalor families. In 1837 Richard Lalor Shiel is recorded as proprietor of Long Orchard in Co Tipperary.

At this stage we can only wonder at how our James Lalor's father John Lalor is connected to “John Lalor, esq, of Crenagh, Co Tipperary” and Anastasia, the “daughter and coheiress of John Lalor esq.” Whether John Lalor, the father of our James, is a son or nephew of that John Lalor esq remains to be discovered, but presumably the connection is reasonably close to gain a ‘full cousin’ description.

I have discovered that there is a genealogy manuscript in the NLI: “Reference #27790: A pedigree of the family of Lalor of Cregg and Longorchard, Co. Tipperary, compiled by Thomas Lalor Cooke, of Birr 1859. Ms.1674” However, I don't know whether it contains anything that would shed light on our James' ancestry and location. I approached a couple of researchers in 2019 about getting a 'look-up' of this document, but it seemed they were all very busy with bigger requests. Then I thought I myself might manage to look up this document in July this year while I was in Ireland- but of course such travel was not to be this year.

Griffith's Valuations might provide another avenue to narrow down where James Lalor was from, but the name John Lalor was not uncommon, and I currently don't have information to narrow down the locality. I am wondering whether the fact that James always just gave Co Kilkenny as his place of origin perhaps indicates he comes from somewhere close to the City of Kilkenny, in which case Dunmore might be a possible townland. Or maybe he is from a townland closer to Longorchard in Co Tipperary.

 I am not sure that I will ever solve this 'brick wall'- but other brick walls in Ireland have eventually tumbled down, so you never know!

DNA test done

Finally I decided to get a DNA test done. I had my reservations for a long time- around privacy, around 'unexpected outcomes' and what I might have to do about them... but in the end I went to a few lectures about DNA in genealogy and how it was a new tool that offered many benefits. And I went ahead and did a DNA test with Ancestry who have the biggest database of matches. Thanks to Michelle Patient and also to Fiona Brooker who delivered the lectures I attended, including such informative material. And also to the Feilding group of NZSG who organised the day-long workshop with Michelle that I attended, and to Auckland Libraries who had Fiona and Michelle speaking at their weekend genealogy expo. Interestingly, in both places, I seemed to be among the minority who hadn't had their DNA tested.

At one of the courses I went to, patientgenie talked about the importance of building a 'wide tree', so while I waited for my test kit to arrive from overseas, then make its journey to Dublin and through the testing process, I built a wide tree. The 'wideness', including as many siblings of my grandparents, grt-grandparents etc as I knew, was to show some instant benefits once I got my results and my DNA matches, and I recommend it. (Though I have to admit I built it quickly, and might have relied on a few too many Ancestry 'hints', so definitely have to re-check it all soon!!)

It came as quite a surprise to see how many DNA matches I had- 308 at fourth cousin level or closer. And though I was certain that my parents were truly my real DNA parents, I was glad to find matches in all lines of my tree that were what I had expected.

Some matches were easier to identify with family lines than others. Because I had built a good tree and linked it to my DNA, ThruLines even helped place quite a few matches in the relevant parts of the tree.

The first, and so far only, contact that has come from someone else, came from this 'wide' tree. Her husband was descended from a sibling of my 2X grt-grandfather- so our common ancestors are our 3X great-grandparents. That makes her husband my 4th cousin once removed, and we share 25cM and 3 segments of DNA. I was astounded to realise that distant cousins like that could still share enough DNA to show clear connections. She has done a lot of research on our family lines, and we were able to share info to build our knowledge about "Cousin Hilda" who had come from Jersey as a single woman to join Payn family here in New Zealand.

Cousin Hilda Payn

I looked at my DNA list and decided on a few people I would message. There were a couple of surnames I recognised as being likely 3rd cousins on the Riordan side in Christchurch. I have already had a reply from one. It turns out the circle has fully turned for him, and he has been living in Ireland for the last 20 years, not all that far from Ballylanders, where the Riordan farm was. (He is going to explore!)

I was lucky to have one maternal first cousin and one paternal first cousin who had tested. So by looking at shared matches with one or other of them, I could divide my matches down maternal/paternal lines quite easily.

I decided to go on a hunt for paternal Riordan matches that might have a link to Ballylanders. It had taken me almost a year to pinpoint the likely origin of our "Curraheen" as being Ballylanders, but I was still only about 98% sure I hadn't barked up a wrong genealogical tree of similar names. However, in the process of my long search, I had some familiarity with other local surnames. I messaged a few likely looking suspects. Bingo- the Creagh on the adjoining farm has quite a few DNA matches with us. An O'Donnell match replied and was able to helpfully push back my tree by one generation by telling me the common Quane ancestors we shared.

 This is info I got from Griffiths. I've drawn around farm #20, the Riordan one. You might just manage to see the Carheen fort in the top right corner of the farm. (Farms #11 and #12  are Quain ones.) Next to it are farms #18 and #19, which are Creagh farms. I wasn't surprised to find Creagh matches, and I feel I have now confirmed that Ballylanders is in fact our parish of origin.

So what next? I am delighted with my paternal finds so far, but in a sense they were easy enough, as I was able to bring all my genealogical knowledge about the family to examine the matches. It is a different story with my maternal Lalor line though. I know only that my Lalor 2x-grt-grandparents were John Lalor and Mary (maiden surname unknown,) and that they were from Co Kilkenny somewhere. It seems like I will have to be much more systematic when searching my matches for likely Lalor connections. I will plod away, and am hopeful that DNA will eventually help me through the Lalor brickwall!

First success with Griffiths- Riordan

I am still quite an 'accidental' genealogist. I had looked at pages of Griffiths Valuations before, but they had never made any sense to me. However, armed with "Cullane South" townland and "Ballylanders Parish"  from the 1841 census extract for Patrick's older brother James, I decided to look for a map of the area.

Google was again my friend. It led me to a really useful website by John Grenham to look at Ballylanders Parish. 

When I clicked on Cullane South, it took me to a Griffiths Valuations page.  Clicking on occupants led to list of names. John Riordan was there on the second page. These valuations were done from about 1847 to 1860s or so, so this would be my great-grandfather Patrick's father John. There is also a "Quain" listed in Cullane South. There was a number in the left hand column by John Riordan's name- 20 with an a.

Going back to the first page listing for Griffiths, there was a "maps view" icon. Section 20 was quickly apparent on the Cullane South map.

The maps are incredibly useful because there is a slider that lets you overlay a modern map, and have varying levels of the old/modern maps. So the Riordan farm lies right on a bend on the modern Cullane/Tully road- in fact the farm is bisected by it. I reckon I could find it if I went back to Ireland with a car one day! On the map you could also see that Glenroe/Darragh- where the O'Donnell priest/cousins came from, was right next to Cullane South.