James Lalor- from Co Kilkenny

I know a lot about my maternal great-grandfather James Lalor on the West Coast in New Zealand. He was active on various local boards and committees, and there are many references to him on Papers Past. I am connected with various lines of his Lalor descendants in New Zealand via DNA.

But I know very little about his life in Ireland before he emigrated. I know he came from Co Kilkenny, and from his death registration I know that his father was John Lalor and his mother's name was Mary. I don't have a more precise location for him in Ireland, and nor do I know his mother's maiden name. Nor does Ancestry provide any suggestions for further ancestors via ThruLines.

One thing I have learned about him from an article in Entre Nous- a parliamentary journal (16 Nov 1901)- is that he was a "blood relation to two men of celebrity".  He was a “full cousin” of the celebrated Irish orator Richard Lalor Shiel; and Peter Lalor, later speaker of Victorian Legislative Assembly, was a ‘distant relation’. (Our James was said to be in Bendigo when the Eureka riots took place at Ballarat.)

James Lalor was clearly a man who had been educated when growing up in Co Kilkenny. He started his career in the Post Office, he managed a large butchery shop in Melbourne, and he was a Parliamentary Messenger in New Zealand. He was born sometime between 1837 and 1844, and seems to have headed off to Australia for the goldrushes when he was still quite young.

 Using Google, I found a free ebook of “The Speeches of the Right Honourable Richard Lalor Shiel.” This had information about Richard Lalor Shiel’s connection with the Lalor family. He married ‘the daughter of Mr John Lalor of Crenagh, in the county of Tipperary, the widow of Mr Edward Power, of Gurteen’, and thus became connected by property with the county of Tipperary.

There is further information about Richard Lalor Shiel in a wikisource database that states that Richard Lalor Shiel was born 17 Aug 1791, several decades before our James Lalor. His first wife died in 1822, and in "1830 he married Mrs Anastasia Power, the daughter and coheiress of John Lalor, esq., of Crenagh. Co Tipperary."



There is information on the NUI Galway website about landed estates that includes information about the Lalor and Power-Lalor families. In 1837 Richard Lalor Shiel is recorded as proprietor of Long Orchard in Co Tipperary.

At this stage we can only wonder at how our James Lalor's father John Lalor is connected to “John Lalor, esq, of Crenagh, Co Tipperary” and Anastasia, the “daughter and coheiress of John Lalor esq.” Whether John Lalor, the father of our James, is a son or nephew of that John Lalor esq remains to be discovered, but presumably the connection is reasonably close to gain a ‘full cousin’ description.

I have discovered that there is a genealogy manuscript in the NLI: “Reference #27790: A pedigree of the family of Lalor of Cregg and Longorchard, Co. Tipperary, compiled by Thomas Lalor Cooke, of Birr 1859. Ms.1674” However, I don't know whether it contains anything that would shed light on our James' ancestry and location. I approached a couple of researchers in 2019 about getting a 'look-up' of this document, but it seemed they were all very busy with bigger requests. Then I thought I myself might manage to look up this document in July this year while I was in Ireland- but of course such travel was not to be this year.

Griffith's Valuations might provide another avenue to narrow down where James Lalor was from, but the name John Lalor was not uncommon, and I currently don't have information to narrow down the locality. I am wondering whether the fact that James always just gave Co Kilkenny as his place of origin perhaps indicates he comes from somewhere close to the City of Kilkenny, in which case Dunmore might be a possible townland. Or maybe he is from a townland closer to Longorchard in Co Tipperary.

 I am not sure that I will ever solve this 'brick wall'- but other brick walls in Ireland have eventually tumbled down, so you never know!

Passing things on...

This year I have two main things I want to achieve with my family genealogy.

The first is to get a booklet together that 'introduces' the family story to our newer generations. At this stage I'm not yet half-way through what I want to share on the paternal side- words and pictures- but hopefully the booklet will be a Christmas present this year rather than next!

The second thing I want to do is to get going on some proper organisation of all my family photos- both recent and older and even photocopies I have of very old photos. If I can digitise them, hopefully they are more likely to last over time to reach somebody interested in more family research.

Dad, second from right

Yours truly and sister

Of course, I haven't stopped trying to follow up some new leads as well. One thing I really want to do is track down where exactly our Lalor family came from in Co Kilkenny. There is a really useful article in Papers Past that states that my great-grandfather, James Lalor, is a 'full cousin' to the famous Irish orator, Richard Lalor Shiel. I have found a 'pedigree' on the National Library of Ireland site that seems to relate to this exact family in 1855, and hope to get it 'looked up' soon- but it seems like the researchers in Dublin are currently overloaded with business. Maybe I will have to look it up myself on a visit. I suspect 'my' Lalor connection will be turn out to be just over the county border from the Templetuohy area- if I actually can break through this brick wall!

Frank PAYN & Johanna SCETTRINI

Now it is time to briefly introduce my great-grandparents from Kumara, my maternal grandmother's parents- Francis Davis Payn, and Johanna Scettrini.

(Originals of these photos are presently held by Joe Payn, Kumara.)

Francis Davis PAYN was born in November 1854 in St Martin's Parish on the island of Jersey in the Channel Islands. His parents were Thomas Payn and Elizabeth MOURANT. (Their headstone is in French, so I assume Francis Davis was probably able to speak French.) Originally some of us thought he was born in 1851, but it turns out he had an older brother of the same name who died aged 3. Our Francis Davis was born the very next day, and given the same name.

Johanna SCETTRINI was born in 1865 in Australia. She was baptised in St Kilian's (Catholic) Church in Bendigo, and her residence was given as Sailor's Gully. Her parents were Giuseppe Scettrini from Corippo, Ticino, in southern Switzerland, and Catherine HENEBERRY from Ballyporeen in Co Tipperary, Ireland. When she was young, Johanna's parents moved to follow the goldmining on the West Coast, and settled first at Big Dam/ Waimea/ Goldsborough. They later moved to Kumara.

Francis and Johanna married in Kumara in 1886 at the Registrar's Office. He was a goldminer, and she had been doing some domestic duties for the Seddons, who presented the couple with a large clock on their marriage. Frank's residence was given as "Dillmans", and Johanna's as Kumara.
(The spelling of Johanna's surname appears to be written as Scetrini at her wedding- one of many spellings that differ from the original name of Scettrini back in Corippo.)

Frank and Johanna had 11 children that I am aware of:- Thomas- 1886; Catherine (Kate)-1888; Elizabeth (Lizzie) -1890; Mary Ann- 1891; Rose (my grandmother)- 1893; John Francis (Jack)- 1895; Hilda Selina- 1897; Joseph Helier (Joe)- 1899; Matilda (Tilly)- 1901; Albert Edward- 1903; Francis Davis (Frank)- 1908. (I am grateful to cousins Patricia Milne (nee Lalor), Pat Wallace, and Maurice Payn for help researching the details for these children.)

Frank Payn was very involved in the local community. In Papers Past there are references to him as a goldminer, and he was also  one of the Kumara Hospital trustees. Payn's Gully is named after him, and there is a track that Joe Payn has been very involved with creating (at the Boundary Rd/ Londonderry Rock end of Kumara township.)

Frank Payn died in 1929 in the hospital in Hokitika, aged 74. Johanna lived to be 93 and died in November 1957 in Tasman Home, Greymouth.

Greymouth Evening Star 22/11/57

Frank and Johanna are both buried in the cemetery in Hokitika.